Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:31:55 PMEvery institution in the us is doing some form of DE. How did they get to the distance learning concept. Why not just do extension or correspnodence education or on-line learning. What is the DE concept...it is a concept invented by a group (including your's truly) in Vancouver in 1982). we changed the name of th einternational organization doing correspodence educaiton to distance education....but there were few Americans in the group (may none as I recall). It worked and ICDE became the leader in the world in DE orchestration...major conferences, fudning, third world invovlement, etc. However, it already had a legacy of the UK OU, athbabaca, Deacon in Autratila, the Fern in Germany, and eventually the larges tuniversities in history in India and Euprope.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:32:54 PMIf you are logging on, don't use anything but chat...this is typing only. Other functions are band problems and you'll get bumped off. Please find chat and stay there...you don't need white board, etc.
Lesa Lee1/23/20026:33:02 PMAm I back?
Kim Larson1/23/20026:33:11 PMyes Lesa
Lesa Lee1/23/20026:33:24 PMDid everyone go?
Danette Zickrick1/23/20026:33:34 PMI'm still here.
Brenda Hauff1/23/20026:33:36 PMFr. Sandy: To me adding the two-way video conferencing to the distance learning moved it to a new direction. Correspondence courses and telecourses were just one-on-one.
Jan Brockel1/23/20026:34:19 PMThey have something in common, however. The learner being responsible for her own learning.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:34:50 PMJan...that s right but not complete, the instituions now began to take more responsiblity for her learning too
Marcy Wells1/23/20026:34:50 PMAnd the Internet added a rich dimension to course content and ease of communication.
Heidi Noem1/23/20026:34:58 PMI see more student collaboration in DE versus the traditional correspondence courses.
Roxanne Everhard1/23/20026:35:02 PMIsn't that even true in the traditional classroom too Jan?
Arlie Phillips1/23/20026:35:02 PMEspecially with correspondence, there was little interaction with the teacher which new technology improves
Jen Kynaston1/23/20026:35:44 PMcorrespondence takes longer
Marcy Wells1/23/20026:36:16 PMThe systems concept integrating all the components of distance ed was a big step forward, I think.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:36:17 PMWe should be careful with terms: llike correspondence...this is corresondece and its quite fast...what you mean is the post.
cliff delong1/23/20026:36:24 PM[Private to Dan Coldeway] Is this CET740?
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:36:35 PMcliff hang in there well start later
Jen Kynaston1/23/20026:36:36 PMyes...sorry
cliff delong1/23/20026:37:01 PM[Private to Dan Coldeway] OK - see you in a bit...
Jen Kynaston1/23/20026:37:11 PMi meant traditional correspondence...in which you had to mail in your work and didn't get immediate feed back
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:37:13 PMNo need to apologize, you make the point I wanted to make...this business is truly steeped in terminology...part of it history.
Al Bierschbach1/23/20026:37:32 PMWouldn't this be distance education, as a systems approach was used to create it.
Cheryl Jenner1/23/20026:37:35 PMThe old coorspondence course consisted of - her is your assignment - do it ( which in some cases was not just post, but also on television ) - I took one that way. YOu got your lessons and listened to TV
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:38:17 PMAl I didin't understand your question try again
Jan Brockel1/23/20026:38:20 PMI took a math course for college. Mailed in my math problems and they came back corrected. If I had a problem, I had to ask someone on campus.
Marcy Wells1/23/20026:38:27 PMYes, Al--it took quite a bit of forethought and organization to get us all together tonight.
Lesa Lee1/23/20026:38:29 PMI need the feedback of the "new" DE
Al Bierschbach1/23/20026:39:10 PMYou compared what we are doing now to correspondence instead of DE, but i think of it as more DE than correspondence.
Jan Brockel1/23/20026:39:28 PMThis is neat. I like this better than class discussion because you have to think, process.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:39:39 PMthe new DE is the old DE, just better pacakaged and labeled...like the new NIKE shoes.
Kim Larson1/23/20026:39:50 PMMarketing!
Jan Brockel1/23/20026:39:51 PMThere we go with terms again. Correspondence is a form of DE.
Lesa Lee1/23/20026:40:03 PMAnd better feedback with the tech available
Trina Johnson1/23/20026:40:15 PMI think the main disadvantage of the "old" corespondence what the fact that there was not timely feedback. For learning to occur the student needs to know what is right and what is wrong before they move on.
Barb Glanzer1/23/20026:40:19 PMThe term correspondence just means not on site correct? It justs has a bad connotation which is why we now use the term DE. Do I have that right?
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:40:21 PMright on Jan...all forms of communicaiton for the purposes of education can be distnace ed...mark hopkins and you sitting on a log.
Marcy Wells1/23/20026:40:41 PMDr. Coldeway, is the US making more of a presence now in the ICDE and other Internatl organizations?
Jan Brockel1/23/20026:40:56 PMWhoosh, that sitting on a log comment went right over my head.
Roxanne Everhard1/23/20026:41:06 PMMe too
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:41:08 PMIn SD we have a confusion over the term DE...it often means the DDN or somelthing lke it. Trust me, that is not the defintion...nor any form of technolgoyc an form that deifntion.
Brenda Hauff1/23/20026:41:31 PMIn a post correspondance (I think thats the term) I received very little feedback from the teacher, except a grade here or there. I see this class and other Distance Education courses as more involved than the old. Fr. Bren
Danette Zickrick1/23/20026:41:38 PMDDN is just one means of delivering distance education, isn't it?
Roxanne Everhard1/23/20026:41:47 PMSo DE is not the technology it's the method, right?
Lesa Lee1/23/20026:41:48 PMWouldn't technology be the tool for the DE
Heidi Noem1/23/20026:42:00 PMThat's what I think Danette.
Linette Simpson1/23/20026:42:13 PMI think technology is just one of the tools for DE.. isn't it
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:42:14 PMOkay...I'm using a metaphore from literature to explain a concept. Although most think it was Mark Twain on the logt, it was Mark Hopkins and a student...at a distance of eight feet...often a way to explain they were distant and yet connected.
Jan Brockel1/23/20026:42:32 PMgot it.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:43:01 PMOkay, back to history...hold you comments for a minute or two.
Cheryl Jenner1/23/20026:43:53 PMIn SD - we have other forms of Distance Ed at the high school level - we have the DDN, and we have on-line Internet courses. Of couse for us traditionalist - we have busses to move kids at a distance
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:45:35 PMOkay, why do DE? Historicially it was because of factors outside of distance geography...openess was the key concept and remains a key concept. the o9pen universities have different values about several factors that effect their success. What's you take after reading the text?
Al Bierschbach1/23/20026:46:34 PMI think that Open Universities are successful because people are busy and can
Trina Johnson1/23/20026:46:46 PMThe main thing I got out the reading was the fact that soooo many things are considered DE in one way or another.
Al Bierschbach1/23/20026:46:48 PMCan't go to classes on a normal schedule
Linette Simpson1/23/20026:47:13 PMisn't cost effectiveness part of the reason to do DE?
Cheryl Jenner1/23/20026:47:18 PMI think one of the main reasons for DE, is the ability to take classes from anywhere , at anytime. So someone like you and me can take a class with out driving 200 miles every night
Jen Kynaston1/23/20026:47:49 PMmy purpose for doing DE is to obtain a degree that I want and not one that is offered near me
Al Bierschbach1/23/20026:47:59 PMThe asynchonorous approach of Open Universities is a big drawing point for them.
Jan Brockel1/23/20026:48:00 PMOpen universities value lots of people signing up for their classes because that reduces their costs.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:48:03 PMgood comments: all of this works together to make things happen...so then you consider you means of delivering education at a distance and whether that villates the accessibility o9potin.
Roxanne Everhard1/23/20026:48:25 PMI think besides distance the other main factor is cost effectiveness...you stole my idea Linette
Heidi Noem1/23/20026:48:27 PMNot a geography guru here, but in other countries that are further advanced than the US, did they really have a lot of other options because of geographic distance from people to schools??
Marcy Wells1/23/20026:48:46 PMOpen Universities have a staff of experts designing the courses, are dedicated to distance ed, and benefit from
Marcy Wells1/23/20026:48:56 PMeconomies of scale with the volume of students.
Jan Brockel1/23/20026:49:17 PMWhen I think of other countries with distance ed, I think of highly populated European countries for whom distance is not such a problem.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:49:19 PMthe volume of scale issue we should talk about later...its an interesting one in the big picture
Brenda Hauff1/23/20026:49:30 PMFr. Sandy: DE classes over convenience, and in SD it also allows the instructor to get more students in the class so that it can be offered.
Trina Johnson1/23/20026:49:38 PMHeidi, I kind of thought of that also, yet some of the most advanced countries are considerable smaller than the US
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:50:34 PMYou should know that about 30% of the Athabasca students live in 5 minute driving distance from conventinal instituions of higher education and could enroll there. that make sense? It does to me
Jan Brockel1/23/20026:50:51 PMWhy?
Danette Zickrick1/23/20026:50:53 PMSome of the original distance education courses were to help people improve their job skills, and it's still a major factor. People who are already employed don't have time to courses, so geography isn't the main factor--it's time and convenience, I think.
Trina Johnson1/23/20026:51:03 PMI don't quite understand that.
Brenda Hauff1/23/20026:51:28 PMEven if you live close, the convience of daycare, and meals, and just being at home is much nicer. Fr. Brenda
Cheryl Jenner1/23/20026:51:32 PMI agree with Danette - convience is a key
Kim Larson1/23/20026:51:36 PM Is some of it a convience issue?
Barb Glanzer1/23/20026:51:39 PMI within 5 minutes of NSU and yet I'm getting my Master's from DSU. That made perfect sense to me!
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:51:41 PMYou enroll for content, and availableiity and later learn flexability...none of which were present in the instituions down the street.
Lesa Lee1/23/20026:51:55 PMFinally back on. Now what did I miss?
Arlie Phillips1/23/20026:52:01 PMIt comes back to the needs of the learner.
Al Bierschbach1/23/20026:52:02 PMI'm a block from a university but am getting my Master's over DE from that University.
Danette Zickrick1/23/20026:52:15 PMTraditional education courses are often scheduled for the convenience of the institution, not the students.
Kim Larson1/23/20026:52:32 PMI think Arlie hit it - centered around the NEEDS of the leaner!
Al Bierschbach1/23/20026:52:34 PMI'll e-mail ya Lesa
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:52:35 PMIts interesting that I don't see al much on campus because he doesn't have to be here...but he could if he wanted or need to be.
Lesa Lee1/23/20026:52:41 PMthanks
Roxanne Everhard1/23/20026:52:50 PMIt's a time and especially distance for me
Trina Johnson1/23/20026:53:01 PMAl, would you be taking this course using DE if it were offered in the evenings at DSU on campus?
Danette Zickrick1/23/20026:53:02 PMDitto, Roxanne.
Jan Brockel1/23/20026:53:08 PMGood points. I'm so far removed from anything that I sometimes forget that DE isn't just for those of us in the sticks.
Linette Simpson1/23/20026:53:16 PMfor me, it's content and also flexibility and convenience
Al Bierschbach1/23/20026:53:34 PMNo, I would do it DE, that way I can be at home with my wife and son.
Lesa Lee1/23/20026:53:37 PMI also live in Madison but take course DE--I would take them on campus if I had the choice
Cheryl Jenner1/23/20026:54:04 PMIt is time, distance and the right classes ( getting a degree that you want ) for me - I have universities closer also, but no offering what I would like
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:54:19 PMI'll let Al answer and end this tonight...I have another course starting. thanks and I hope you found this worthwhile. I'm asking you to withdraw by endintg the session on net meeting in the next five minutes or so.
Lesa Lee1/23/20026:54:20 PMAlthough I do like the flexibility
Arlie Phillips1/23/20026:54:24 PMsame here, hi Cheryl
Cheryl Jenner1/23/20026:54:40 PMHi Arlie
Brenda Hauff1/23/20026:54:44 PMFr. Brenda & Sandy: We both agree that if we had a choice we would take the class on campus with an instructor. Maybe time will change our minds.
Heidi Noem1/23/20026:54:44 PMWill these transcippts be posted on your website Dan?
Dan Coldeway1/23/20026:55:07 PMI'll be back to you weith transcripts if needed. I save all of this.
Heidi Noem1/23/20026:55:21 PMThanks.
Lesa Lee1/23/20026:55:24 PMDan-What about a schedule of things to come
Roxanne Everhard1/23/20026:55:26 PMI would like transcripts Dan as I missed the first part
Marcy Wells1/23/20026:55:32 PMI like the availability of distance courses--I took one from SDSU I couldn't get elsewhere within driving distance.
Jen Kynaston1/23/20026:55:38 PMi would too...i got booted a couple times
Tricia Neugebauer1/23/20026:59:47 PMnope, cet740
cliff delong1/23/20027:00:16 PMhello?
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:00:25 PMwho is in CET 740 and here
Barb Glanzer1/23/20027:00:36 PMWhat happened to our chat for LT 741?
Tricia Neugebauer1/23/20027:00:51 PMtricia neugebauer is here for cet 740
cliff delong1/23/20027:00:53 PMcdelong@olc.edu
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:01:12 PMthe chat for lt 741 ended at eight pm...sorry
Sandy Krage1/23/20027:01:28 PMHi
Bruce Mastel1/23/20027:01:33 PMBruce is here for 740
cliff delong1/23/20027:01:42 PMDefining Human Activity and Educational Activity systems.
Bruce Mastel1/23/20027:02:28 PMHey Doug!
Sandy Krage1/23/20027:02:50 PMI'm getting sounds as well. Is that OK?
cliff delong1/23/20027:02:52 PMStatement of Purpose and system specs...
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:03:02 PMHold on for a couple of minutes...I'm sorting out the data from the last conference.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:05:03 PMHi its me again. ?To get started we need to know the topic: any ideas? only joking. Obviously I have some. However, I want to wait a couple more minutes to make sure eveyrone gets on...some people are delayed by their situtiaotion. Finsih reading Bela's book!!
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:06:24 PM?to begin: the schedule of activity. I'm sending or have sent you a schedule of activity. There are two assignemnts listed, one in midterm and one at the end. any comments?
Sandy Krage1/23/20027:07:17 PMDetails are on the class web page?
Brian O'Connor1/23/20027:07:17 PMI will look for it
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:07:51 PMIts obvious that it didn't make the street. I'll attach it later as an e-mail attachement.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:08:07 PMThe general schedule is this"
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:08:14 PMYou work until I say its over
Bruce Mastel1/23/20027:08:27 PMChat, two papers and reading sounds great, however the book will need some aid in explanation...
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:08:45 PMdid any one receive my schedule
doug greenway1/23/20027:08:52 PMNO
Tricia Neugebauer1/23/20027:08:53 PMyes, I did
Bruce Mastel1/23/20027:08:54 PMYes I received it
Sandy Krage1/23/20027:09:00 PMI got a schedule
Lisa Tolliver1/23/20027:09:02 PMYes, I got it from Paulette
Paulette Mangold1/23/20027:09:11 PMI received it
Bruce Mastel1/23/20027:09:31 PMJan 10-23 (Course Introduction and orientation) Banathy chapter one Jan 22-Feb 4 Human Activity Systems (Banathy to page 59) Feb 4-11 Components and Functions of the EAS (Banathy to page 100) Feb 11-24 The Process Lens model (Banathy to page 170) Feb 25 – Mr 3 A systems analysis system (end of Banathy) Mid term assignment due March 4-10 Introduction to ISD (see class workbook) March 11-17 Spring Break March 18-24 ISD Analysis and Design issues March 25 – April 7 ISD Development and Implementation April 8 – April 14 ISD Evaluation and quality control April 14 –end of semester Student presentations final assignment due
doug greenway1/23/20027:09:42 PMYes, it just came in
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:10:11 PMOkay..leets talk about Banathy (thanks for posting that) that book is very hard to grasp for some people. any comments so far
Lisa Tolliver1/23/20027:10:44 PMI agree, it's hard to grasp, but looking ahead, I'm hoping the next 3 chapters will help make things a little more clear
doug greenway1/23/20027:10:47 PMHe seems to say the same thing over, and over. Distinguishing the differences may take some time.
Sandy Krage1/23/20027:10:50 PMJust that it's hard to follow. He needed an editor.
Paulette Mangold1/23/20027:11:09 PMI need to reread the chapter. By the end I was starting to understand a word or 2.
Brian O'Connor1/23/20027:11:26 PMTo sound mysterious, you must have a mysterious sound
Bruce Mastel1/23/20027:11:53 PMBasically we need to understand that different lenses are need to see a structure for its whole system and its parts....is that close?
cliff delong1/23/20027:12:03 PMBanathy's tome seems to me a merger of sociology, systems analysis and design and organizational psychology...
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:12:09 PMYes an editor would have been perfect...however, please consdier that when I've used htis text in the past, students often tell me they remember this approach over all others...was that his purpose in writing it? I doubt it. He is talking about wide scale reform (or not if its working) uysing a perspective new to most of us.
Tricia Neugebauer1/23/20027:13:13 PMso you are saying when I get that "aha" moment I'll remember better?
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:13:23 PMCliff and Bruce you have gotten close...read ahead a bit and see the lens model and imagine the variables involved. It is repetitive and thats likely given it cybernetic and reiternitve.
Brian O'Connor1/23/20027:13:33 PMYes. in order to have a human activity system, you must have a system of active humans.
cliff delong1/23/20027:14:11 PM:-)
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:14:11 PMVery funny Brian: the assumption underlying this is that the human situatioln invovles more than the educational system...buit they interact big time.
Brian O'Connor1/23/20027:14:34 PMI'll quit now.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:15:00 PMdont quit yet...we need to describe what a system is first and then you can quit
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:15:51 PMOn web board I mentioned that we talk about existing organizations and functions as systems...not the same for Bela. What do you sense are the differences?
Sandy Krage1/23/20027:16:16 PMIt sounds to me like you can draw the lines for the system almost anywhere. To do just education, you have to exclude systems that actually act upon the educational system.
Brian O'Connor1/23/20027:17:07 PMLike you told me earlier, Banathy holds more of a systems perspective than really trying to define systems in general.
cliff delong1/23/20027:17:14 PMHe begins with the assumption that education is a social system.
cliff delong1/23/20027:17:52 PMWhich is intrinsically different with the traditional definition of a system from the engineering perspective...
doug greenway1/23/20027:18:02 PMI think with most existing systems, everyone know there roll, and they try to contribute to the best of their ability within their roll.
doug greenway1/23/20027:18:17 PMrole(role)
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:18:20 PMThink about his use of terms: Human activity, eductional actiivty and the like. He is refereing to both existing structures or valuies and human activity or behavior...maybe trying to merge them into something more functional (he later uses that term).
Tricia Neugebauer1/23/20027:18:23 PMmany individuals/parts working together and interacting with each other to achieve a common purpose...it's like the difference between Toshiba systems and regular industry...Toshiba (& all its employees) organizes each area with the whole in mind??
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:19:05 PMsorry their role
cliff delong1/23/20027:20:05 PMCan we differentiate between the three models?
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:20:14 PMTricia may have a point here...trying to find an end objective within the systems perspective may create a new approach to juste about everything. that why DE has a strong Systems view in most places...you can't live without it and I guess either can Toshiba.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:20:51 PMHold on cliff to that thought
doug greenway1/23/20027:21:55 PMEveryone would like a smoother running machine or system, in industry the variables don't change has much as 9-12 grade students do
Sandy Krage1/23/20027:22:05 PMWhy can't the models be merged? Or does that happen later in the book.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:22:42 PMgood point about students in the "system". Human activity systems are much more dynamic than most physical systems or organic systems...but the prcinples appear to be congruent.
Paulette Mangold1/23/20027:24:05 PMSo everything is webbed together one relying or supporting the other?
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:24:25 PMWhen you address a systems problem you begin by finding the variables that impact or enter the system. Heating would incllude many human and non human variblaes in cluding insulation, space, use, comfort, change, outside enviroment, etc.
doug greenway1/23/20027:24:58 PMThe dynamics you mention, when in a classroom or school setting can come together to be a very efficient or extremely difficult system to work within.
cliff delong1/23/20027:25:17 PMOld school - you would have to begin by defing the problem - I'm cold!
cliff delong1/23/20027:25:40 PMdefining
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:25:41 PMYou don't build a superinsulated house for horse in Texas!! The issues for their life don't include the cost or the design. However, you would for humans in Texas if you were concerned with energy use for cooling, etc.
Tricia Neugebauer1/23/20027:25:42 PMThe variablility is what distinguishes a HAS from other systems right?
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:26:37 PMthe variability is the one constant in all systems...they are cybernetic and ever changing...not unlike the system cliff would like in his house to not be cold.
cliff delong1/23/20027:27:23 PMHoney - put another log on the fire...
Tricia Neugebauer1/23/20027:27:24 PMyeah, I guess I can see that,...systems constantly evolve
Bruce Mastel1/23/20027:28:09 PMHow does one study a system that constantly is evolving or is the evolution a slow process
Sandy Krage1/23/20027:28:47 PMHow accurately does one study a system if one is in the middle of it?
Tricia Neugebauer1/23/20027:28:49 PMyou study the process of evolution and not look for an end product
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:29:11 PMNot only do they evolve, but they change over time and that's part of the systems perspective that Banathy seems to be suggesting we ignore most of the itme. We somehow believe in our existing "system" without knowing what works overall...the newe wave of standardized testing is recycling a thrity year old concept that fiailed...,but not this time, although we don't have any idea of what to do if we fail the test, don't make the grade, or need altneratives to change the issues.
cliff delong1/23/20027:30:28 PMconclusion vs decision oriented inquiry? after a decade or so - threated to cut off federal funding...
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:31:59 PMthe study of systems as a middle reviewer is the hardest thing to do. I'm already entrenched in the DSU culture enough to know that a systems view of the entire university is possible but no probable. Even fundig for p9rojects is possible, but difficicult...one finds themselves in a mental and sometimes physical black hole...tired of making suggesting? Try systems suggestions that use feedback as the answer...why do that, you are smart or powerful and you should know the answers!!! GEt my drift?
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:33:45 PMKnow your EAS...or at least be able to describe it in detail...thjat is a good start. Know what human activity systems require...think in terms of human behavior and the results. Don't think human beahvior is physical beahvior...its oral, mental, results, attitudes, etc.
cliff delong1/23/20027:33:56 PMSo, we study the systems with the intent to - what?
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:34:26 PMDrive yourself crazy or make things better...take your choice
cliff delong1/23/20027:34:57 PMchange is a dirty word
Paulette Mangold1/23/20027:35:21 PMOr the golden ring
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:35:31 PMBanathy believes in Justice, fairness, etc. His values influecne his views. However, at least he takes that seriously enough to include it as part of the HAS and EAS.
cliff delong1/23/20027:36:03 PMI believe in parity - OJ kind of killed my perspective on justice.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:36:47 PMI'm sorry you don't like orange juice, but I don't like Mike Tyson either
Brian O'Connor1/23/20027:37:03 PMLong live boxing!
cliff delong1/23/20027:37:16 PMSo how do we fend off cynicism as we age?
Brian O'Connor1/23/20027:37:28 PMNever grow up
Paulette Mangold1/23/20027:37:36 PMContinue to learn
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:37:49 PMI wish I'd seen more of the real fight on TV...hiring a crimilal to make money in the ring doesn't do it for me...have it on the streets...but I digress
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:38:28 PMOkay, a short time out while I do some math for ya'll on systems.
Sandy Krage1/23/20027:38:37 PMMath?
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:40:49 PMOkay, write a differential equation that describes these variables: time from a-b; changes in behadvior over that time, and the impact of salient variables on that function over that time. Pick any behavior you wish and any time frame. It doesn't have to be education. You can do this graphically if you wish. Try not to use functions that overlap. can you do this?
cliff delong1/23/20027:40:56 PM2^10 = 1024Kbps = SDN mandated CIR (Commited Information Rate for data transmission between k-12 systems - by edict
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:41:29 PMNo behavior and no interactive function...that is not a differential equation liff
Brian O'Connor1/23/20027:41:48 PMI think it would look something like the equation that gives the probability of intelligent life on other planets.
doug greenway1/23/20027:42:02 PM WHAT????
Sandy Krage1/23/20027:42:11 PMIs this just for fun for the mathematicians? Or will things like that happen here?
Brian O'Connor1/23/20027:42:59 PMYou could always cop out and cry "Schoedinger's Cat"
cliff delong1/23/20027:43:00 PMdelta sub ab / delta t as a function of REM defined as # of Rapid Eye Movements while in deep sleep
Brian O'Connor1/23/20027:43:32 PMof course, I am uncertain...
Sandy Krage1/23/20027:43:33 PMREM and deep sleep I'm with.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:44:09 PMObviously you didn't expect this type of discussion...but use you heads...its not that hard. Try this: you know aboutr time, you know about behavior over time, and you know impacting variables (assuming you defined the problelm carefully). So you imagine you can create a range of effect from the bottom of the function to the top (as a max). Now consider factors that would change that and give them value (from one to ten)
cliff delong1/23/20027:45:34 PMEpsilon i = 1 to 10 B/T yields a curve - a linear function of some type...
cliff delong1/23/20027:45:55 PMnot a conic or a three-dimensional space - just a curve
Tricia Neugebauer1/23/20027:46:27 PMdiff. in reading time/ from beginning of course to end- due to clarity of content???
Sandy Krage1/23/20027:46:36 PMIsn't turning human interactions into math problems kind of like predicting the weather--there are always more variables than can be tied down?
Paulette Mangold1/23/20027:46:58 PMgood point sandy
cliff delong1/23/20027:47:07 PMNot if you do it on a llarge scale
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:47:07 PMIs there a problem with drugs in schools? Problem is timie based and behavioral. the lower limit is zeero and the upper limit is defined by you or the law (possession of drugs by everyone in school). Now you intevene with a program and expect change...but is it change or an artifact of change? You factor in the effect and gather data discover that the orginal fucntion was faulty (not zero to max, but zero to 50%). You decide that a decline of 50% on the resuting function indicates change. what measure would you take and how does all of this work?
Bruce Mastel1/23/20027:47:17 PMPredictions are just that...nothing is a given when varialbes are at stake that can't be controlled
cliff delong1/23/20027:48:38 PMDoes it generalize?
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:48:45 PMThe point is that the systems functions (differential equations) change as the variables change...not a problem in math, but a problem for us doing the work. so we need to know more about how to predict results based on systems fucntions. No longer do meetings and concensus work.
cliff delong1/23/20027:49:23 PMI want representation!
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:49:47 PMWe have an equaiton that interacts with another...a range that is predictable but only under control and intervening variables that are predictable but not estimated until they occur...sound lilke edication?
Sandy Krage1/23/20027:50:21 PMSounds like life.
cliff delong1/23/20027:50:44 PMperhaps a model of one facet...
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:52:17 PMYes life...recentlyu a group of students predicted the spread of AIDS based on a systems model they developed using STELLA II. that program allows one to intrdocue the above into a formula based and grahphically based system. Guess what, they were closer to the reality than the Center for Disease control. Why, they factored in human variables not considered overall like sexual attractiveness, need, prostitutiioin, etc.
cliff delong1/23/20027:53:32 PMAsimov's psychohistory concept revisited...
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:53:47 PMBanathy is the ultimate version of the STELLA concept without knowing it (alhtoug I'm sure he uses it). We'ed all be using it except it expensive and not really necessary unless you use it often....my version is totallyh without concern for my well being and user needs.
Bruce Mastel1/23/20027:53:51 PMWere there findings reproducible or did they get lucky? Not to play down their work
Brian O'Connor1/23/20027:54:17 PMAll this can sure make a good argument for being able to just will something into existence--or policy.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:55:20 PMgood point...they were cybernetic in that their system used all data sources and adjusted as it processed the information...the true nature of systems thinking. They were not commioteed to a point of view or a result and were free to accept the resdults. Moreover, the math involved allowed them to factor out variables with little value (based on results, not viewpoint). the system was the answer, no their tentative results.
Brian O'Connor1/23/20027:55:51 PMWhat do you mean, "without concern for my well being and user needs."?
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:56:38 PMI lost a sentence Brian..sorry
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:57:09 PMI was trying to say that a system may not be based on the suer needs or well being (not mine)
Brian O'Connor1/23/20027:57:26 PMOh. Just curious.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:57:33 PMI should also point out that those factors could be factored into the systems view
Sandy Krage1/23/20027:58:09 PMUser needs and well being?
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:59:04 PMenough of this for otnight. I'll be sending you a list of activites I want you to comlete soon. Keeep a journal of Banathy acctivities as you read and study. I'm goging to ask you to sned me that at midterm for a quick review. I also want you to consider your environmewnt and existing system. You may find that an areas of study for later work.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20027:59:55 PMSometimes human emotions are critical to systems work...build a house without that systems view and find it not what you wanted would be a simple example Sandy.
Sandy Krage1/23/20028:00:24 PMThanks. That's true.
Dan Coldeway1/23/20028:00:26 PMany final comments
cliff delong1/23/20028:00:33 PM Berkeley Madonna is arguably the fastest, most convenient, general purpose differential equation solver available today. It is relatively inexpensive and runs on both Windows and Mac OS. Developed on the Berkeley campus under the sponsorship of NSF, it is currently used by academic and commercial institutions for constructing mathematical models for research and teaching.
Brian O'Connor1/23/20028:01:09 PMhmmmm...
Tricia Neugebauer1/23/20028:01:14 PMgoodnight
cliff delong1/23/20028:01:26 PMhttp://www.berkeleymadonna.com/
Dan Coldeway1/23/20028:01:39 PMCliff, I'd be curious, but only the math...leaves me pale.
cliff delong1/23/20028:02:00 PMSorry - my worst subject
Sandy Krage1/23/20028:02:07 PMCliff, does that mean you can do these kinds of probs with software and just fill in the blanks?
cliff delong1/23/20028:02:13 PM10-4
Dan Coldeway1/23/20028:02:36 PMgood night everyone and thanks
Sandy Krage1/23/20028:02:39 PMbye
cliff delong1/23/20028:02:42 PMIf you are working with a large enough model to generalize
Sandy Krage1/23/20028:02:53 PMthanks, cliff.
cliff delong1/23/20028:03:27 PMbye all!
Paulette Mangold1/23/20028:03:36 PMgood night